Ayana: We protect what we love. It’s really that simple. And for me, I fell in love with the ocean when I was a little kid and have ever since been trying to understand what I can do to help protect it, you know, as soon as I learned that it was threatened and polluted and overfished and all those things. And now, of course, very much threatened by climate change. So, I think having that connection to nature, that love of nature can really be the source of energy that keeps us going as well as love for future generations and young people around today who are begging us to stop lighting their futures on fire.

Mike (narration): Welcome to the Mongabay newscast. I’m your cohost Mike DiGirolamo. Bringing you weekly conversations with experts, authors, scientists, and activists working on the front lines of conservation, shining a light on some of the most pressing issues facing our planet, and holding people in power to account. This podcast is edited on Gadigal land. Today’s guest on the newscast is marine biologist and co-founder of the non-profit Urban Ocean Lab, Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. She joins me today to talk about her new book, What if we get it right? Visions of Climate Futures, which has just released. I was given an advanced copy and had the opportunity to read the whole thing. This book is a thoughtful collection of essays and interviews with experts, journalists, policymakers, and others, working in the climate, agriculture, energy, policy and conservation spaces. Some of which have appeared on this very podcast, such as Bill McKibben and Judith Schwartz. I found many of these interviews, insightful and sensitive to the highly complex ecological, political and social problems we face today. Notably, however, the book does not pitch a techno utopia as the solution to climate change or all of our problems. Nor does it profess to have all the answers. But rather a sober and mature examination of the esoteric, the nerdy, the wonky, and yes, the unsexy things we should be doing now to protect nature, restore it, and move towards a future that looks a lot less like corporate greed and more like a justice. But I hope I haven’t made it sound hard or not fun to read this book because it definitely isn’t. And is well worth your time. If you didn’t think discussing things like tax abatements, commodity subsidies, or flood insurance sounded really exciting, y you will, after reading this book, and I submit, you will also understand how these directly apply to environmental and human rights. The book takes care to clearly outline possibilities for policy, political and social shifts and yes, technological ones. Now, I don’t want to spoil anything for you., but I think you will find the conversations with Leah Penniman on food sovereignty or climate justice for frontline communities with Colette Pichon Battle and how to get climate reporting right, with Kendra Pierre-Louis, particularly great conversations. But there are many. That said. A 20-minute conversation with the author can only scratch the surface of all of these insights. But I might summarize them with Ayana’s words. The most important thing is to carry ideas forward.”

Mike: Ayana, welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. It’s great to have you with us.

Ayana: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mike: So, I really enjoyed reading this book. I, I thought it was a really amazing amalgamation of a lot of very informative interviews. But a really big part of it is dedicated to examining, you know, ecology, nature, farming, forestry, and land justice, and how this all ties together with climate as well. And many people you interview talk about this in varying contexts and how that intersects with human rights, how we treat nature, you know, how these delicate systems connect with our infrastructure and our way of life. Something you wrote in the book you know, said something to the effect that you often don’t think that nature or ecosystems get enough love. So I just…you know…do you still feel that way? Do you still feel like nature or biodiversity doesn’t get enough love in conversations being had right now in the mainstream?

Ayana: When it comes to climate change, absolutely. I mean, it’s as if all we need is technology to solve this crisis that we’re in. When in fact we know that nature is something like 30 or 40 percent of the solutions. If we protect and restore ecosystems and put things back in balance, the magic of photosynthesis can really get us a long way to where we need to go.

Mike: Yeah, it was really great to hear you—like you mentioned in the book—that a techno utopia isn’t going to solve all of our problems that’s not all the answers. So, there was something else that you mentioned, you brought this up in a conversation with David Marchese in the New York times, and you said that something that you feel like often doesn’t get examined is the political divisions that present barriers to change. So, I was wondering if you had any reflections after making this book, do you have any reflections on what some of those political divisions are? Is there anything that you learned or gleaned from your work on this book?

Ayana: Well, we’re obviously in a really critical political moment right now, right? We’re in the middle of extremely intense and high stakes election season here in the United States. And we have really stark differences between the candidates at the presidential level, right? We have, you know, Trump who rolled back 100 environmental protections, regulations when he was in the White House. And during this campaign has already promised that if fossil fuel executives donate a billion dollars to his campaign, he will regulate in their favor if he gets back in the White House, that they make a hundred billion dollars more of profit, right? And on the other hand, you have Kamala Harris–though, of course, there’s things we would wish were stronger about her environmental record–has been a climate justice champion for many years was the deciding vote on the Inflation Reduction Act, the largest investment in climate solutions–in not only U.S. but world history–and actually acknowledges that climate change is a problem that we have to deal with and that there is a big economic manufacturing infrastructure and jobs component to addressing that. So, I think my choice is pretty clear on that one, but it’s really important for us to think about to think about down ballot elections, right? Those local representatives, the city council members, the public utility commissioners, the port commissioners, right? Mayors. All of these things that we don’t necessarily think of them as climate leaders, but they absolutely are. That’s where these policies are getting implemented these climate solutions from, you know, how fast do we transition off coal energy? Or do we have municipal composting? Or are we investing in public transit? Not just EV charging stations, right? All of these things are decisions that are made by local politicians. And the conversations in this book led me to appreciate that even more, that the implementation is really happening at a local level. We all need to be paying attention to what’s going on in our communities to show up at those city council meetings when we have opportunities at town halls. These people are there to represent us. And if they don’t hear from their constituents, that we care about this issue, they’re not going to prioritize it because there’s a lot of other stuff going on. So, the interviews in this book, actually, there’s one interview I didn’t get to do (there’s two) but that I wish had been included in the book. And one of them was with the founders of Environmental Voter Project and Lead Locally, and they are doing everything they can to get environmentalists to vote in the case of Environmental Voter Project, because over 8 million Americans who are already registered and already have climate as their number one issue did not vote in the 2020 election, 8 million. And we know how close elections can be, right? And then Lead Locally, supports specific down ballot climate candidates, all those local positions that I just mentioned, and making sure we have people in those roles who get it is critical. So, I’m actually bringing both of those organizations with me on my book tour to register volunteers with them so that we can make this a climate election. So just the politics of it all, yes, there’s division but right now what I would like everyone to focus on is like, who’s the best option for climate and the other issues you care about and just do everything we can to make sure they’re the ones that we’re arguing with once they’re in those roles.

Mike: So, there is a there’s a strong theme in this book, or it’s something you touch upon in your interview with Judith Schwartz and it’s biophilia. And you sort of challenge the reader to think about what in their life made them connected to nature in the beginning, like in their childhood. And I’d love to talk about that with you for a second. So why is this so important for people to connect with and tap into?

Ayana: So biophilia or love of life, love of nature is such a strong motivator, right? We protect what we love. It’s really that simple. And for me, I fell in love with the ocean when I was a little kid and have ever since been trying to understand what I can do to help protect it, you know, as soon as I learned that it was threatened and polluted and overfished and all those things. And now, of course, very much threatened by climate change. So, I think having that connection to nature, that love of nature can really be the source of energy that keeps us going as well as love for future generations and young people around today who are begging us to stop lighting their futures on fire. There’s been polling to show that the number one motivator for climate action is love. I’m not just like a mushy romantic. I am that, but also there is polling data.

Mike: You talk about food in this book with—it’s one of my favorite interviews—with I believe it was Leah Penniman on how much industrialized agriculture contributes to not just carbon emissions, but the destruction of nature and ecosystems. And you say in the book that we are often told it has to be this way, but you outline (and you and your interviewees clearly outline) that it doesn’t. So, can you elaborate on why it doesn’t have to be this way?

Ayana: I mean, we don’t need to douse the planet in poisons and pesticides and fertilizer in order to grow food. Right? We’ve been growing food on this planet for a long time. And there are more regenerative ways to do that. I mean, composting, mulching, mixing different crops, rotating, low till, all of these regenerative practices have an important role to play. And a lot of that fertilizer is over applied and ends up running off of the topsoil into streams, into rivers, to the ocean, causing dead zones because of this eutrophication, this excess nutrients that lead to algal blooms, which then sink the sea floor and as they’re decomposing or using up all the oxygen and the fish don’t have enough oxygen. It’s just a mess. Right? So, I think we need to not just think about what’s happening on land and in the soil and making sure we’re protecting all the microbes and life in there, the biodiversity in the soil. But also thinking about what it would mean you know, the literal downstream effects of industrial agriculture are deeply concerning. So, I think you know, as well as the health risks for agricultural workers who are very much exposed to the poisons that are often used on field. So, I think we’ve just got to get a lot more creative and practical about how to improve our food systems in ways that the food is actually healthy for us. And the growing of it is healthy for farm workers and for other species that are around.

Mike: I love in the book how, you know, towards the end of interviews, you always ask your guests some practical advice of how we get things right. Something Leah mentioned is a policy suggestion. It’s HR 40 which, you know, includes things like food justice, certification rematriation, ending commodity subsidies, incentivizing regenerative agriculture and cover crops. These are all like, you know, super practical ‘can do’ things that just I feel like don’t get enough attention. And just wanted to say I really appreciated you talking about those and bringing them up in conversation. Did any of that surprise you, or was there anything that you gleaned in those conversations that really just stuck out to you that you wish more people knew?

Ayana: Hmm. I mean, I’ve thought a lot about agriculture in the past 20 years since my mother became a farmer upstate New York an hour or so from Leah Penniman’s farm. So, she’s so poetic and incredible. And the way that she understands both the policy and the organizing pieces of this, as well as the actual growing of food is super impressive. You know, the idea that what we need to do as farmers is call the carbon home to the soil, right? That the carbon is not the villain. It’s just in the wrong place is such an important message. I think, yeah. I mean, I think because I’ve worked with and known the people I’ve interviewed in this book for many years, most of them, there weren’t a ton of surprises. But it was certainly delightful to be in conversation with them and sort of draw out of them all these wonderful things that I know they have expertise in. But one thing that that I talked about with Bill McKibben was just the importance of making sure that people have their money in places where they’re not investing in the expansion of fossil fuels, right? And most of us don’t really know where our retirement savings are invested, what companies are in that mutual fund or portfolio. And if we don’t know, they’re probably fossil fuels in there. And if we’re invested in fossil fuels, then that is doing more harm than all the good we can do with eating plants and being good pedestrians and bike riders and lowering our carbon footprints as much as we can, because funding the expansion of fossil fuels is obviously very bad for the planet. And so, I would encourage folks to, you know, make sure that your money is doing right by the planet. There are lots of different options now, whether that’s for 401ks or where you have your savings account that can help us. And I have actually…I can offer resources that might be helpful to folks if they want to figure out better options. One is bankforgood.org. They have lots of different banks for you to evaluate and choose from and greenportfolio.com on the investment side of things. So, check it out. It’s exciting to me that there’s something that could take, like, a day of your life to figure out. Like, it’s a pain in the butt. There’s a lot of paperwork to move your money between accounts. But once you’ve done it, you’re done. And then you’re not passively causing this harm that you probably didn’t even know you were causing. And certainly, didn’t want to.

Mike: Yeah, that entire interview was pretty illuminating for me as well. And he, I like how Bill actually talks about, additionally to this, the importance of heat pumps, which is something that I actually didn’t previously think about. These are super effective. And to me, that was pretty surprising about just how outdated our heating and cooling systems are in…

Ayana: oh, yes.

Mike: …many nations.

Ayana: And they’re great because you can use them as a retrofit option, right? You just sort of pop them in the wall. And so even if you have an oil furnace, you can just stop using that. You don’t have to, like, renovate your entire house with all these ducts. There are ways to just have standalone units there. So, yeah, I think I… my mom installed heat pumps in her house a few years ago and it was a total game changer because she was mostly heating the house with a wood stove, which had all of this smoke associated with it, which is not good for you. So, yeah, I think that’s sort of the open secret here, right? These are upgrades. Like going from spewing gas in your kitchen to cook to induction stoves, that’s an upgrade.

Mike: Yeah.

Ayana: Electric cars are an upgrade. High speed trains are an upgrade. Insulating our homes to save energy, that’s an upgrade. Solar panels, absolutely an upgrade, right? And so, I think there’s been all this resistance, like it’s a bad thing to have like really good appliances. It’s just a lot of the solutions in climate are just better. They like smell less, they cost less, you know, it’s just a good thing to do.

Mike (narration): Hey there. Thank you as always for tuning in and listening to the Mongabay Newscast we really appreciate it and all of your support. If you happen to be listening to us on a browser, or even if you aren’t. And you enjoy our work. I heartily encourage you to subscribe to the show, using your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. Doing both of these things helps us reach a wider audience. And it’s also the best way for you to stay up to date on our most recent episodes. And if you’re really enjoying Mongabay’s work, you can also subscribe to our newsletter which is conveniently located in the upper right-hand corner of Mongabay’s landing page at mongabay.com. Thanks again. And now back to the conversation.

Mike: I do want to touch upon another interview you did with Kendra, ‘cause that was such a good conversation and you were discussing…

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Mike (narration): That’s Kendra Pierre-Louis. Award-winning climate reporter.

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Mike: …you were discussing about like how protests are covered. And I thought her advice here was so incredibly important. And it was that…and she was mentioning that reporters should be covering what a protest is for, not just what happened in the protest, but what the protesters are out there for. And it made me think about sort of the recent increased criminalization of protests. And I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that interview or any reflections that you wanted to share with us.

Ayana: Well, first I’ll say I’m really concerned about the criminalization of protest. Right? We don’t have our first amendment rights to free speech. If every time we speak up, we are at risk of arrest. I think, you know, peaceful protest is such a huge part of the foundation of this country. And we’re gonna have to need to raise our voices on climate because politicians are absolutely followers and not leaders on this. Right? We can’t just wait for corporate executives to do the right thing because they like read some scientific article that they just hadn’t gotten to in their reading queue before. That’s just not how this is going to play out. As Bill McKibben says, as Jade Begay also says in this book, an Indigenous climate justice leader and political strategist, like there’s not going to be a scenario where we don’t need to protest. That’s just not going to happen in the near term. And so, protecting that right to protest is critical and making sure journalists have the, you know, directive and skills to properly cover that is critical. Like sure, if there’s a little disruption of traffic for… what was it for? Was it worth it? Right? Is it about an issue big enough to make a disruption of the day to day a good and important thing to do to get attention? Right? Of course, we can debate about the specific details of strategy of different protest actions. But overall, I think… Kendra’s point is really important that we have this protest paradigm where it’s all about like naming the inconvenience. Like you might not be able to get your coffee right at the moment you want it or the cereal or whatever. Like we have to just zoom out and think about the bigger picture and what people are trying to change. And also appreciate that it is protesters who make it much easier for people like me to talk about policy because there is social pressure for politicians to do something differently. And then they have to talk to a bunch of wonky folks who are like, okay, like we’re, we’re in, we’ll do something like, what should we do? So, yeah, I mean, I think her overall take on just the news doing a pretty shoddy job on covering climate is certainly spot on. We’ve sort of sectioned off the climate section of the newspaper and that doesn’t make sense because climate is actually the context for all of the other dramas that are playing out on this planet.

Mike: So, I want to talk about an epic journey you outline in the book where you’re championing coastal and ocean climate policy

Ayana: Oh, yes.

Mike: And that was a really fantastic read—and I have to say five op eds is really impressive. So, you know, that was a huge accomplishment. But I’m curious after you went through all that, what was the biggest thing you learned? What was like the biggest takeaway you got from that?

Ayana: The most important thing is to carry ideas forward. I mean, the people will change, the politicians will change. I mean, this was a story about my attempt to push forward this narrative of a blue new deal in complement to the green one, because the ocean is a huge part of climate solutions. I mean, the latest analysis is that 40 percent of our climate solutions can be found in the ocean, whether that’s renewable energy offshore or zero emission shipping or protecting and restoring coastal ecosystems, regenerative farming in the ocean of seaweed and shellfish, right? There’s all these things we could be doing that are solutions to climate. And if we don’t include those in climate policy, like the green new deal concept, then we’re really missing not just a nice to have, but a must have. And you know, this was something we brought up with each presidential candidate back in 2020 and making sure those ideas carried forward, right? From Jay Inslee’s campaign to Elizabeth Warren’s campaign to Bernie Sanders’ campaign to the Biden campaign. And now the staff who had worked on all of that, who are in the White House like Maggie Thomas…it really is just like this endurance game, this tenacity, this adherence to the principle and the goal and kind of like the players will change, the context will change but you have to just keep like moving these things forward. And of course it’s…it’s all about collaboration. So, you know, having that ‘inside/outside game,’ as they call it, you’re working with staff in political offices, you’re working with people, think tanks, you’re working with activists and trying to figure out who are the right people at which moment, what’s the right message, but also who’s the right messenger. Sorry, this is not one takeaway at this point. Haha!

Mike: It’s fine. Haha. It’s a lot of takeaways.

Ayana: But it was a really informative effort for me. And of course, it’s one that’s still ongoing. The goal is still to make sure the ocean plays a major role in federal climate policy as well as at the state and local level, too. And that’s going to be work that I do for a very long time. I’m sure. I mean, that’s the founding principle of Urban Ocean Lab. That coastal cities are not prepared for the impacts of climate change, and we’ve got to really think about that because one in five Americans live in a coastal city like we don’t have a plan for dealing with sea level rise for how to adapt and be more resilient to the changes that are coming. So, yeah, I mean, I think it’s also…the lesson is like, this is the long game. It’s not like you get some singular, cute, discreet law passed, and then the work is done. We have to commit to things for years. And if not decades.

Mike: Well, Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, thank you so much for joining me today and speaking with me. Where would you like to direct listeners to find and maybe purchase a copy of your book?

Ayana: You can go to GetItRight.earth, the book website, find out about all of the contributors whose wisdom is collected in the book. There’s also a playlist there. My anti-apocalypse mix tape can be found there as well as a reading guide. So yeah, I hope people, and of course a link to buy the book at GetItRight.earth

Mike: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you.

Ayana: Likewise. Thank you.

Mike (narration): If you want to pick up a copy of What If We Get It Right? Head to GetItRight.earth, or you can find a link in the show notes. As always, if you’re enjoying the Mongabay Newscast or any of our podcast content such as our sister series Mongabay Explores and you want to help us out, I really do encourage you to spread the word about the work we’re doing here and tell a friend about the show. Word of mouth is a great way to help expand our reach, but you can also support us directly by becoming a monthly sponsor via our Patreon page at pateron.com/Mongabay. We are a nonprofit news outlet, so even just a dollar per month makes a pretty big difference and it helps us offset production costs. So, if you’re a fan of our audio reports from nature’s frontline, go to patreon.com/Mongabay to learn more in support the Mongabay Newscast and all of our podcast content. But you can also join the listeners who have downloaded the Mongabay Newscast well over half a million times, by subscribing to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts from, and you can also download our app for Apple and Android devices. Just search either app store for the Mongabay Newscast app to gain fingertip access to new shows and all of our previous episodes. And of course you can also read our news and inspiration from nature’s frontline at mongabay.com or follow us on social media. Find Mongabay via our accounts on LinkedIn at Mongabay News and on Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, Mastodon, Facebook and TikTok where our handle is @Mongabay and on YouTube @Mongabay TV. Thank you as always for listening.