‘Trust needs to be rebuilt’: Interview with candidate to head U.N. seabed-mining authority

For Leticia Carvalho, change is needed at the International Seabed Authority, the regulator of deep-sea mining in international waters.

Carvalho, 50, a Brazilian oceanographer and international civil servant for the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), is running for the position of secretary-general of the ISA, a U.N.-mandated body charged with overseeing activities related to seabed minerals while also ensuring the protection of the marine environment. The ISA, headquartered in Kingston, Jamaica, is made up of 168 member states and the European Union, and consists of five main organs: the assembly, council, secretariat, legal and technical commission, and finance committee.

The upcoming election will take place among delegates at the assembly meeting between July 29 and Aug. 2, 2024. It comes at a pivotal moment for deep-sea mining, with upcoming decisions holding the power to chart the course for the potential industry.

Deep-sea mining has not yet started anywhere in the world. The ISA is working to finish a set of rules, regulations and procedures for how mining can proceed, known as the mining code. In July 2023, ISA delegates set a rough deadline to finish the mining code in 2025, although some observers say they don’t believe this timeline is feasible. In the meantime, Canadian firm The Metals Company has expressed its intent to apply for an exploitation license later this year, which would allow the company to begin extracting seabed minerals for commercial purposes in the near future — possibly before the mining code is complete.

Critics say if the industry moves ahead it could cause irreparable harm to the marine environment, adding to the many anthropogenic stressors the ocean is currently experiencing. Twenty-seven states have called for a precautionary pause or moratorium on deep-sea mining, although such a move has not been formally discussed at the ISA meetings. Advocates of the industry, however, say seabed minerals are necessary for metal-dependent technologies like electric car batteries and for national security purposes, and that environmental harm can be limited.

With all this going on, the election of the ISA’s secretary-general has taken on unusual importance. Carvalho’s only opponent is the current secretary-general, Michael Lodge, a barrister from the U.K. who has been criticized for apparent bias toward the deep-sea mining industry. Lodge, who began serving in 2017, is running for a third four-year term. The U.K. sponsored his candidacy for the first two terms, but this time Kiribati is sponsoring him. His predecessor was Satya Nandan of Fiji, who served three terms, and before him Nii Allotey Odunton of Ghana, who served two terms.

In an interview with Mongabay’s Elizabeth Alberts, Carvalho says there are several reasons a change in leadership is necessary.

For one thing, she says it’s time for someone from Latin America and the Caribbean to take on this leadership role, which would be in line with U.N. principles of geographic rotation. Second, she notes that in the ocean governance space, most leadership positions are held by men, and there needs to be more gender equality in many organizations, including the ISA. She points to U.N. agencies such as the International Maritime Organization (IMO), the Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission (IOC) and the Division for Ocean Affairs and the Law of the Sea (DOALOS) whose leaders are all men.

Moreover, Carvalho has put forward the idea that the ISA “has enormous room for improvement in management and governance,” and that trust needs to be rebuilt within the organization.

“In my view, rebuilding trust is the fundamental aspect,” Carvalho says. “Because the creation of the Law of the Sea envisaged the multisectoral use of the common space of the ocean.”

The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Mongabay: What part of Brazil did you grow up in? And how did you first connect with the ocean as a child?

Leticia Carvalho: I was born in Rio de Janeiro in 1973, but I grew up in Brasilia. So I experienced the joy of living by the sea in my early years, and my curiosity about the natural world evolved into a professional call and therefore into a lifetime career. The deep ocean always fascinated me, as well as the magnificent scale of the ocean currents. I was also fascinated by the hydrological cycle. I used to tell stories to my kids about the hydrologic cycle and the ocean-atmosphere interface when putting them to sleep. This is what led me to become a policymaker, a regulatory authority, and later on an international negotiator of global guidelines, standards, rules and regulations toward sustainable use of natural resources. My career goal has been crystal clear: to build institutional innovation based on scientific knowledge that can lead to the optimal use of ocean and water resources with the minimum disruption of ecological balance, for the sake of economic equity and inclusiveness.

Mongabay: Before you started working on policy, you were an oceanographer. Can you tell me about that part of your career?

Leticia Carvalho: As an oceanographer, I worked on vessels. I am a hydroacoustic expert. From the very early days, my role was to connect the mid-water with the deep-sea ecosystems. This brought me, 20 years ago, into a very technology-driven space. This was critical as Brazil was doing the assessments of potential sustainable exploitation of living and non-living resources in its national waters to respond to the Law of the Sea.

In my early days of studying oceanography, I took law classes about the Law of the Sea as it is the international regime for the governance of the ocean. While taking these law classes, I drew on my knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology and mathematics to understand the marine ecosystems integrated management. Since then, I was absolutely sure that I would work within the science-policy interface.

Mongabay: What led you to step forward as a candidate for secretary-general of the International Seabed Authority?

Leticia Carvalho: In the ocean governance space, male leadership prevails. Just look at the IMO, UNESCO/IOC, DOALOS — their chiefs are all men. The Law of the Sea exists for more than 40 years now, and the ISA for more than 30 years. Yet all secretaries-general so far were men. It is time for a woman scientist, policymaker and intergovernmental negotiator to lead onward. The gender policies of ISA are simply not targeting high levels of decision-making, therefore they aren’t going far enough to balance gender in the organization.

My personal reasons for stepping in are first because I have scientific, policy and regulatory knowledge required to perform as executive secretary who can lead the move from exploration to exploitation on a sustainable basis. I was one of the lead professionals of the regulatory framework for oil and gas exploration and exploitation in Brazil 20 years ago, meaning that the deep sea is not new for me — quite the opposite. Secondly, I have served as U.N. executive secretary in several processes. I recall the breakthrough plastics negotiations.

Mongabay: How much weight does the geographic rotation have on the ISA elections?

Leticia Carvalho: Since the establishment of ISA, Asia Pacific, Africa and Western Europe have provided their contribution. Kiribati, an Asia-Pacific Island putting forward a non-national of Kiribati to continue a cycle of leadership — that would take the current incumbent to 12 years in power. Disrespecting the rotational rule is a huge pushback to multilateral system values. I also feel that it would open a precedent that probably will not stay in the ocean space; it will go beyond the ocean space. Before the ISA assembly, I hope Kiribati rethinks its position to put forward a candidate for continuity when another region has the well-established right to put forward a candidate, especially when the candidate has all the competencies for the position.

Mongabay: Besides the regional rotation, why do you think it’s the right time for change in leadership within the ISA?

Leticia Carvalho: The ISA is a member-state-driven organization. The secretary-general has a big and important role in setting a table for everybody to sit and have a voice. My sense is, after eight years, for two terms, every secretary has to leave based on democratic principles, no matter how dedicated, capable and successful they are.

I also think the ISA has enormous room for improvement in management and governance, and I think this is clear — this is not me speaking, this is out there in the press — if we look into the eight years of the current incumbent. I would say there was progress. The mining code started to be negotiated. I don’t underestimate the role of COVID in impacting these discussions because … my work was also impacted by COVID. But even recognizing all of these aspects, I think the leadership [turned] the ISA into what the press has called a very obscure organization that is not well known in its mission, not well known in its management framework, and somehow not under the spotlight of the oversight of the whole of society.

For me, the mission of the ISA and the leadership of the ISA is to be a trustee — an honest broker that brings decision-makers together, offering space that belongs to the whole of humankind. It should offer transparency of its own procedures, on the decision-making processes, on the management of the budgets — all of this. It’s absolutely to be clear to all of us, because we expect that someone in Nepal or in Botswana is equally interested — that’s the assumption that the secretary-general needs to have.

The ISA does not need a change in its mandate — the mandate is quite clear; it is absolutely anchored in the Law of the Sea. But it needs a change in the way the leadership delivers its affairs, because if you are a trustee of the biggest commons on Earth, you cannot be called obscure or opaque in any way. Because that is a paradox. I think the current incumbent says that stability is what is needed. I agree, stability is needed, but we absolutely need innovation and certain practices that can turn things from opaqueness to transparency.

Mongabay: What do you think are the most urgent matters that need to be dealt with at the ISA?

Leticia Carvalho: In my view, rebuilding trust is the fundamental aspect — trust between the subsidiary bodies, trust between the member states and the secretariat, trust between the secretariat with other systems, agencies and bodies that are taking care of sectors in the same space — because the creation of the Law of the Sea envisaged the multisectoral use of the common space of the ocean.

On a pragmatic line, I would say the rules, regulations and procedures for mining, which are the core elements of the mining code, need to be focused on and prioritized. But as much as I see the rules, regulations and procedures as the core technical elements … I would say there are other elements that are equally important or fundamental, such as how we go about benefit sharing and how we go about protecting or avoiding harm to the ocean. At this moment, the ISA is lost in a regulatory cacophony; I am interested in bringing a little bit more regulatory harmony, or at least a dialogue that is better organized with all the multisector aspects of the ocean into the space of the ISA.

Mongabay: At a speech that you made in Kingston, in March of this year, you said you don’t believe that a precautionary approach and the use of natural resources should contradict each other. What do you mean by this? And how would you find a way to make them supportive of each other when it comes to deep sea mining?

Leticia Carvalho: My whole experience has been reconciling these two aspects, as I told you, for plastics and for oil and gas. And I think there is a point of reconciliation. Of course, it changes from topic to topic, condition to condition, or resource to resource. But I am fully confident that there are conciliatory points that can be found.

Just to be very clear, the precautionary pause [to deep-sea mining] is not a topic under the agenda of the council. It is a political or policy call from a number of member states and entities. But it was not embraced by the council as an agenda item at this moment. However, I believe the claim behind what we are calling a “precautionary pause” has different meanings for different players. I’ve heard things like a 10-year pause, for example — that’s what Brazil has declared. For others, a pause can take not too long and perhaps for a different number of years. For others, there is a call for a moratorium, meaning that this activity is not at all needed and should never happen. The council and the ISA are not mediating what a precautionary pause means.

The ISA is to deliver deep-sea mining — it is there for it — but in doing so, it has to deliver it on the promise not to harm the environment. In my understanding, the pause speaks to time — time to reflect and embrace knowledge. The current model of the ISA uses data collected by the interested parties for decision-making processes. I had the chance myself to look into this data, and I must tell you, it is fantastic. It is innovative, it is new and really important. But these are not the only sources of data nowadays. Thirty years after the creation of the ISA, scientific information has other [sources], and we are now able to access information in much easier and faster ways. I remember when I was at university: as a Brazilian, you needed to send a letter through your library and wait for six months to access a paper if you were looking to get something from a university in the U.K. Nowadays, we have information in a completely different setting.

So my understanding is that the pause means we need time to reflect and embrace additional knowledge that was not available 20 years ago, including knowledge from independent sources. I see the precautionary pause as an ask for reflection, and an opportunity for the ISA to really embrace that. This was the vision of the Law of the Sea.

Mongabay: Would you like to see the mining regulations finished by 2025? And do you think it’s possible to draft regulations that ensure deep-sea mining is sustainable in that time frame?

Leticia Carvalho: Let me make this very clear: This is a decision of member states and the council, not for the secretary-general. It’s not my role as secretary-general to do anything to speed up or to procrastinate or to delay. But, that said, I believe we can construct a consensus about what needs to be done by 2025 — that’s my hope. If I am [elected to] this position, I would say that will be my commitment: to find a consensus about what can be done and how it should be done by 2025. Of course, it is in the hands of member states to decide exactly what I can do as secretary-general, and I will do the best I can and use the most sophisticated diplomatic service ability to fill the gaps of information and offer tailored and customized information for countries in the room of the council.

I envisage a neutral secretariat, but this is not the same thing as an inactive secretariat. A secretariat should be neutral in terms of decision-making as that belongs to member states. But an active secretary will look to bridge gaps of information, as symmetries of knowledge in the room, between developing countries, mobilize the necessary resources for the independent science to come into fruition that can enrich the landscape, the understanding about what is at stake. I would invest a lot, being a very active secretariat, in listening to the needs of the stakeholders, and try to provide what they need for the decision-making.

Mongabay: How do you think the ISA should deal with any mining exploitation licenses that might be submitted in the near future, possibly before mining regulations are complete?

Leticia Carvalho: Again, to make it very clear, this is a decision that the council will need to take in how they are going to manage this. But with my regulatory experience, I think a regulatory framework that’s not fully fledged yet is a source of litigation. It’s not a solution. If you don’t have the rules, decision-makers do not have a good reference on how to make decisions. And a framework that’s not strong enough — that is weak or full of gaps — only triggers regulatory controversy, and therefore litigation. And litigation has the same role as procrastination.

The ISA regime is perhaps one of the most complicated ones because it is a mix of private and public regimes. So, essentially, you have a contract between the sponsor member states and the ISA; then there is another contract between the sponsor member state and the mining company; and then there are contracts between the mining company and the service providers and the vessels that are from different flags in different countries. So, my sense is, if the council is faced with the obligation to make a decision, no matter if it’s a “yes” or “no,” the problem is, the “how” is not chartered. This is going to go into litigation immediately, meaning that we will stall in one way or another because of the lack of consistency in the industry or the lack of completion in the regulations.

I would also like to bring up one aspect that I am very worried about: the insurance aspect of a non-regulated activity. Because, of course, the insurance system will play its role in guaranteeing that, in case of something going wrong, proper compensations are in place. I’m not speaking only about environmental safeguards — I’m speaking even about human life safeguards, labor safeguards. All of these are based on the ability of the insurance to play its role. I do not see this being said by the ones proposing that mining can start, and I haven’t seen insurance being invited into conversations. All of this business has to be insured — that’s a must.

I also would like to know a little bit more about the views of those downstream in the value chain of mining. For example, those in the car industry — those who advocate that we should start mining immediately say polymetallic nodules are needed in the car industry. There are also car industries like Volvo, Volkswagen and others that said, “No, we’re not taking [deep-sea minerals] into our business immediately.” But I don’t see these downstream users sitting in the ISA multistakeholder arena participating in the debate. They are an intrinsic part of the value chain, together with the miners — so where are they? And where are their voices, whatever their opinions are? In the previous four years of the ISA, I haven’t heard anything about these people.

Mongabay: How would you like to see the future of deep-sea mining as well as the future of the ocean?

Leticia Carvalho: The future of the ocean is much wider than humankind can think through. So the oceans will remain, despite what we do or not. The way we treat the oceans will define, in my view, our well-being as living beings on Earth — not only for us as humans, but all life on Earth.

The reality is, the planet is dependent on ocean cycles. The atmosphere and whatever we call weather is determined not by the atmosphere alone, but by the phenomena that are happening in the waters. Few people know about it. I think ocean literacy is still in the echo chambers of experts. We don’t understand that we cannot turn our backs to the ocean even if you don’t see a coastline close to your home. The ocean is always close to our daily lives. All the cables that are transferring our communications — including this one that we are using — are placed on the seabed.

I think historically, for the good and for the bad, we have the oceans as a connector of life as well. Brazil has coconut trees that are not native. They came through the ocean to our coasts. The oceans are the lifeblood of Earth. So the future I see for the ocean is a future where ocean health is preserved by all activities of the ocean economy.

What I aim for, what I see, what I aspire for is that all the ones responsible to make decisions on these multisector activities, they can do it with the best knowledge available. This knowledge is not just scientific. We have Indigenous populations taking their space and also saying what they know and what they want to preserve in this space. I see a Law of the Sea that is challenging because it’s to give fruition to a number of activities that might not be harmonized by default. But I believe that we can develop technology rules and regulations and practices that can allow the ocean to be healthy, and to deliver the wealth that we aim for our prosperity. That’s my vision.

Banner image: Leticia Carvalho, a Brazilian oceanographer and international civil servant, is running for secretary-general of the International Seabed Authority (ISA). Image courtesy of Leticia Carvalho.

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