Elodie Toto: If when you go to the forest, the only thing you can find is a massive pit with muddy water, how can you drink? The animals who used to come here to drink also and to eat some of the green grass, if they can’t find it, what are they doing? They just leave.

So those people who live near the forest who used to just probably walk one kilometer to find something to eat, to find something to drink, they can’t find it anymore. I met a man who was telling me that now when he wants to find something to eat, he has to walk 20 kilometers.

Mike DiGirolamo (narration): Welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. I’m your co-host, Mike DiGirolamo. Bringing you weekly conversations with experts, authors, scientists and activists working on the front lines of conservation, shining a light on some of the most pressing issues facing our planet, and holding people in power to account. This podcast is edited on Gadigal land.

Today on the newscast we speak with Elodie Toto, a Central Africa staff writer for Mongabay Toto joins to talk about her recent investigation in the Sangha region of the Republic of Congo, which along with the Likouala region, make up over half the forest cover of this Congo Basin Nation. These two regions together have been participating in a REDD+ program for the past few years. A scheme that pays nations for reducing deforestation and keeping carbon in the ground. However, the mining minister of the Republic of Congo has granted 79 permits for gold mining and exploration in the region, which have contributed to deforestation and negatively impacted the lives of the people who live there. Like the Amazon, the Congo Rainforest is also threatened by mining for gold, which is seeing its prices surge amid economic uncertainty. Toto visited the Sangha region to see for herself and spoke with local residents about the harsh conditions and imposed on them by these projects. She also spoke with the REDD+ project developer who did not deny that these mining projects were occurring, but rather justified them with the nation’s need to develop. Despite the deforestation that has occurred and the negative impacts suffered by local communities. The Republic of Congo is asking for remuneration for purportedly reducing deforestation in 2020. A Spanish verifier is independently assessing these claims, but if approved, the World Bank will purchase the carbon for $8.3 million, putting the Republic of Congo on the global carbon market. Lastly, Toto also discusses Mongabay Africa’s new French language podcast, Planète Mongabay. Many people on the African continent consume their news in audio form and she shares how Planète Mongabay is working to meet this need and make environmental news more accessible.

Mike: Hi Elodie. Welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. It’s a pleasure to have you with us.

Elodie: Hi Mike. It’s a pleasure to be there too.

Mike: So, we’re gonna talk about an investigation of yours. You visited the Sangha region in the Republic of Congo, which was participating in a REDD+ program to reduce deforestation. Can you tell us briefly what it is that you found?

Elodie: At first when I went to the Sangha region, I was there because I read in a report that there was a coal mine that was, that was causing a, a massive deforestation there, and that was also preventing the communities look at communities to have access to their livelihood. One has to know that in the north of Republic of Congo, most of the people there rely on the forest for their living. So they, hide, they hunt there, they collect, they gather also some plots for pharmacal use, but also for eating. So everything in their livelihood relies on the forest. They also don’t have access to tap water to electricity, so forest is really crucial there. So I’ve heard about the situation with a gold mine deforesting. So I decided to have a look, and when I arrived there, it was beyond words. If I, if I may say I could see people using excavators to uproot trees. I could see them washing the earth and it basically looked a war zone with what used to be a luxuriant forests actually being uprooted with massive holes, where you used to have beautiful rivers. You were facing mud hole basically. So when I talked to the communities, they informed me that it was not only in that place that it was happening, so they just brought me to several places where the exact same thing happened, and I realized that it was not only one company, who were causing that deforestation in the north of the Congo. Several companies were actually doing exactly the same thing. And being there, I realized also that the mine were guarded by police, so by national agents, by people who were getting paid by the government. So by realizing that, I also realized that those mines were legal. They had the right to be there. So once I got back to my place, I started to dig if they had the right to be there, probably they had the permit granted by the government and it was the case. So I started to dig into all the permits that was given by the Republic of Congo for the last five years, and I started to dig from the last five years because by doing some research, I realized that the whole area was actually part of a REDD+ program. So a REDD+ program is a program that are supposed to help people stop degrading the forest and stop deforesting. And by that program, at some point they’re supposed to create some carbon credits. Basically, a carbon credit. It’s one ton of metric CO2 that has been sequestrated by a company, by a government, by people, basically. And those carbon credit can be sold to people who need to show that we need to mitigate their own carbon emission. So I was in an area where the people were supposed to stop deforestation and forest degradation, and in the meantime I saw all that degradation that was happening, actually happening in front of my eyes. So, I start digging.

Mike: Before we get, sorry, before we get further into it, can you explain the ecological significance of these regions? there’s two regions. This is Sangha and Likouala regions, Which contain, I think roughly half the forest cover of the nation, correct?

Elodie: Yes, that’s true. And the country also has a very interesting location. The country is one of the six country that’s part of the Congo Basin. And the Congo Basin is the second largest rainforest in the world, the first one is Amazon. But even though it’s the second largest, it’s the place that sequestered most of the carbon in the world. So it’s very important for, for us, for everyone actually, because currently we are facing climate change. And it has been proven that climate change is caused by carbon emission. So that place is crucial.

Mike: So the mining minister, as I understand it, approved almost 80 gold mining and exploration permits in the region, correct?

Elodie: Yeah. So I looked in the last five years to all the permits I could find when it comes to gold mining, and I have to precisely because there are also other permits. There are diamond permits, there are iron permits. There’s different resources that are being looked at here, and I looked only in the Sangha region. I didn’t look in the Likouala region, and those two regions are the most other area with most of the forest of Republic of Congo. So yes, I found almost 80 gold permits in that area. So me and this two gold permits because two way to look for golds, basically you have several way to go to look for golds, but you can look at it in a traditional way by using tools that you and me can find easily in a shop. And this kind of gold mining is not that harmful for the environment because you don’t need to cut all the trees.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Elodie: But the semi-industrial way of combining, actually get rid of the trees, get rid of the soil, get rid of everything, which lead to deforestation, which leads to degradation, which leads to the poor situation of the communities end up with. So, yes, 80.

Mike: And there were connections that you found that these licenses had with some controversial figures, such as a friend of the Rwandan president. Can you explain some of those connections?

Elodie: So when I talked to a representative of the Congolese government, he told me that basically all those permits were granted to help to the country to develop. But when I dig into it, I realized that some of the people that I could trace actually were not really helping the country in a way, some were, the children of the mining minister, for instance. There was also a person that you mentioned Yvonne Mubiligi, who’s actually the head of Macefield Ventures. Which in Republic of Congo, Macefield Ventures is a company, run. This company a national run, this company that has investments over Africa. It’s development company in a way. But they work on minings. They work on infrastructure, they work also in military resources. For instance very presenting i n Mozambique, in Cabo Delgado area. So you can, you can actually realize here that it’s not only a matter of development, it’s also a matter of diplomacy because when this company is involved, it has to give something also.

Mike (narration): Hello again listeners and thank you for tuning in. This is a reminder that if you’re listening to the show on your browser, I strongly recommend subscribing to us on your favorite podcast platform. Doing this helps elevate the profile of our show, and it’s also easier for you to stay up to date when we release new episodes. So if you like the work we’re doing, please subscribe and leave a review. But if you really want to help us out, you can also donate to us by clicking the button in the upper right corner of the landing page at mongabay.com. Thanks very much. And now back to the conversation with Elodie Toto.

Mike: And you, you started talking about this earlier, but I, I’d like to get into a little bit more detail about it. Can you describe the environmental impacts that you witnessed on the ground, particularly as it relates to the people who live there? What did some of the, local inhabitants of the Sangha region tell you and show you?

Elodie: Basically when I was there, I had the opportunity to visit some villages. And just to give you a picture, when you arrive to those villages, first of all, you don’t have access to your phone. There is no phone reception. So you go to those houses and they, they’re made with soil. They’re made with basically biological components. It’s not strong structure.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Elodie: That’s the type of house, very traditional, very sustainable. But you can feel that if a storm comes there, it’ll wipe the house completely. And when you go inside those house, you have one or two rooms, maximums. But in the meantime, you know that you have probably 5, 6, 7 person living in one of those houses. So you can see that the people are not the rich among the richest person in Congo, and also not among the richest person in the world they don’t have access to electricity, they don’t have running water. So to actually eat, to find something, to heat, to find something, drink, they have to go to the forest. But if when you go to the forest, the only thing you can find is a massive pit with mud water. How can you drink? The animals who used to come here to drink also and to eat some of the green of the grass? If they can’t find it, what are they doing? They just leave. So those people who live near the forest who used to just probably walk one kilometers to find something to eat, to find something to drink, they can’t find it anymore. I met a man who was telling me that now when he wants to, to find something to eat, he has to walk 20 kilometers. I don’t know if you realize how it is to walk today 20 kilometers. To find something to eat. And those people don’t have cars. They don’t have electricity, so they don’t cars

Mike: I mean, it sounds, it sounds heartbreaking. You spoke with the REDD+ project developer, and it appears that he made no attempt to deny that these projects were happening. What did he tell you? What was his justification for all of this?

Elodie: Basically, when I talk to the project developer, he seems very aware of the situation. Very aware. He was like, okay, that’s true. There are some gold mining happening in the region, but we can’t just save our forest and expect some money from it, we are a developing country and to develop a country one needs money. And we have so much. That’s what he was telling me. We have so much resources on our floor. We can’t just let them here. We need money. We have that resources. We can provide money. We have to use them too. He also told me that with the REDD+ Project, it has a mechanism that helps, that can help minus to actually mitigate their impact. He call it EMEA, basically. But the flaw in that system is that to have access to that mechanism, the miners has to ask for it. So basically they have to go to the government and say, okay, we want to mitigate and we proceed. We want to make sure that we won’t leave a land full of devastation. How can we proceed? And not so many companies have the resources or even the will to put so much money and so much resources, so much time to save the forest. They’re here to find some minerals, which is interesting because Republic of Congo have laws. Supposed to protect the forest. So by law they have to mitigate the action, but yet they’re not doing so.

Mike: Can you talk about that, that conflict there? As I understand it legally speaking, there’s a difference between quote unquote modern law of the land versus customary law. Can you explain the difference for our listeners?

Elodie: So customary law, if I have to explain it is, is basically the law that has been there before colonization. Modern law is the law that comes from colonization and from the government that have been in place after colonization. So the customary law is basically the, I don’t want to say real, but the original law that has been in Republic of Congo and by customary the, the soil belong to the people who live on it. So all these forests belong to the people who live in the area. But by the modern law, this forest belongs to the state, to the government. So the government has the right to grant that law, that soil to a company or to someone else because it belongs to them. But in the meantime, it also belongs to the local communities. So. Within the years to manage that conflict. There has been laws have pushed the companies and the government each time they want to start a project to ask for permission to the local communities. But the fact is the local communities are living in very remote areas, and as I said earlier. So they don’t always have access to electricity, to internet, and therefore to the information. So they don’t know what are their rights. They just know that they live in that area and that it belongs to them. So they don’t know that they’re allowed to claim that land officially. Even in the modern law they, don’t they not always know that. They end up with people who arrive with a paper signed with the, by the government. We just tell them, okay, we are going to do whatever we want here because we have the permission from the government, but they don’t know that have the right to say we disagree.

Mike: So despite the fact that this deforestation has occurred and these impacts have occurred, the government of the Republic of Congo is still asking the World Bank for, I believe, $8 million for their claims of reducing deforestation. Do you know if the World Bank has reacted to the situation?

Elodie: So the World Bank is aware of what’s happening on the ground because I contacted them when I did the investigation. I contacted them, I showed them evidence of what I found on the ground so they know what’s happening. But in the meantime, prior my investigation, the Republic of Congo have asked the World Bank for 8 million US dollars. They asked for that money because they claimed that they saved carbon during the year 2020. So the carbon project started in 2020 officially, and it’s supposed to stop in 2025. So you are five years and each year supposed to do report saying, okay, we have stored that amount of carbon, so please World Bank pay us those carbon credits for all this CO2 that we have stored. So it’s only for the years 2020. So far, I know that the Republic of Congo is still asking for that money, but the money hasn’t been granted yet. So they have made their claim it’s being audited by a company who’s supposed to check if their claim is correct. The World Bank hasn’t communicate officially at all about it, but it’s still an ongoing process. I have talked to the REDD+ Project manager, and he told me that he feel positive about it. Positive about the fact it’s going to have that money, but let’s see how World Bank will react to it.

Mike: What, what surprised you the most when you were investigating this story?

Elodie: I think my biggest surprise was how not hidden everything was, every evidence that I found could have been found by anyone. The mines were there in an open field. I just had to look at it. All the permits, there were actually legal and public documents, so everyone would’ve looked at it. Look for it. Could have found them. And yes, the local communities are in remote areas, but still you can find some who lives nearby the roads, you can have access to them. It’s not that complicated.

Mike: Yeah.

Elodie: So. How a situation that’s not that complicated to find, it just requires time, basically. Time and willingness to find information, how that situation can happen without anyone doing anything against it.

Mike: Is there anything about this situation that I haven’t highlighted that you wanted to mention?

Elodie: I think it’s important to, to put some context here because we were talking about the fact that it’s the World Bank that’s to pay to Republic of Congo for saving that carbon. But I think it’s important to explain why. Because not all carbon credits are supposed to be paid by the World Bank. The refugee of Congo depend on the World Bank on that situation because they’re part of the Forest Carbon partnership facility, basically. And that facility has been set up by the World Bank to add, to help people from developing countries to set up. REDD+ programs. Why those countries? Because basically as they are developing countries, they don’t always have the capacity and also the funds to implement carbon credit project, they have to focus on infrastructure, on roads. And all the things that actually are lacking in their country. So environment is not always their priorities. So to set up those REDD+ programs, the World Bank are giving them money and resources and then once they have stored that carbon, they can claim some money to the World Bank as carbon credits. Once its certified, but it’s not carbon credit that are being sell at the same price as the official [carbon credits] they are sell at low price. But then with this project, they’re supposed to be set up to be able to reach the official carbon credit markets. So we are in that stage that are claiming the money for the carbons they have actually stored for the first year of the project and they are to claim money for the second year, for the third year, for the fourth year. All those years have been granting gold mining permits.

Mike: Elodie, thank you so much for detailing this investigation and fantastic work. before we, before we end this conversation, I want to give you a chance to preview the work that you’re doing, on the podcast front at the Africa Bureau. Can you talk to us about Planète Mongabay?

Elodie: So Planète Mongabay is the French speaking podcast that Mongabay has  launched, a couple of months ago. What we are doing is to, yeah, provide some clarity into the environment world basically because in the French speaking country, environmental news is not something as popular as political news, it’s. It is. A lot of people are not aware of what’s happening in the environmental sector. It’s not as developed as it is in the English speaking world in a way. So we provide a lot of definition, a lot of information. And also we take the time to ask the people on the ground how they feel about that world. That changing, because even though they’re not aware of all the, of what’s happening officially in the environmental sector, they’re still facing climate change. They’re still witnessing all the change that’s happening in our world. So in a way, we provide information through officials, through people, stakeholders who bring the change, the positive change, and also the negative one, but also we give them an opportunity to share what’s happening to them on the ground and to share their point of view or how can things be better?

Mike: And I know that the podcast is already debuted and there’s been, there’s a few episodes up. Is there anything you’re working on right now, that you can preview for us.

Elodie: So currently I’m continuing my investigation on the carbon Forest Carbon Partnership Facility. Not in Republic of Congo, but in other countries. Why am I doing so? Because Word bank is using funds from every country, so it’s basically public money.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Elodie: And for what I’ve witnessed, not so many people are checking what’s happening on the ground because it’s happening in remote areas. And let’s face it in areas where the spotlight, it’s not on. So I’m continuing that investigation, but this time in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which is the neighboring country of Republic of Congo and was home to 60% of the Congo Basin. So another very crucial area for climate change.

Mike: I am excited to read the results of that investigation and I will be linking all of your work in the show notes of this episode Elodie, thank you so much for joining to speak with me. I really appreciate it.

Elodie: Thank you, Mike.

Mike: If you want to read Elodie’s investigation and her video report, you can find links in the show notes. Don’t forget to also listen to the new French Language Podcast. Planète Mongabay, produced by Mongabay’s Africa bureau. As always, if you’re enjoying the Mongabay newscast or any of our podcast content and you want to help us out, we encourage you to spread the word about the work that we’re doing by telling a friend and leaving a review. Word of mouth is the best way to help expand our reach. You can also support us by becoming a monthly sponsor via our Patreon page at patreon.com /Mongabay. Mongabay is a nonprofit news outlet, so even pledging a dollar per month makes a big difference and it helps us offset production costs. So, if you’re a fan of our audio reports from Nature’s Frontline, go to patreon.com/Mongabay to learn more and support the Mongabay newscast. But you can also read our news and inspiration from Nature’s frontline at mongabay.com. Or you can follow us on social media, find Mongabay on LinkedIn at Mongabay News, and on Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, Mastodon, Facebook and TikTok, where our handle is @Mongabay or on YouTube @mongabayTV.

Thanks as always for listening.