The following transcript displays the interview between Rhett Butler and Mike DiGirolamo.

Mike DiGirolamo: So, Rhett, thanks for speaking with me. Happy 25 years. You have got to be really proud of how far Mongabay has come and where the organization has come. So, congratulations.

Rhett Butler: Well, thank you very much. It’s amazing it’s been 25 years.

Mike: I mean, there’s so many milestones and positive impacts that Mongabay has had over the past 25 years. It’s difficult for me to like, name them all in one question. You know, we’ve won the Biophilia Award, you’ve won the Heinz Award. Is there a moment that sticks out to you in all of these accomplishments that really summarizes or is emblematic of Mongabay’s success and impact?

Rhett: I think the Biophilia Award was a nice, uh, recognition, because it came from the outside world about our work, and it sort of was based on the aggregation of all these things that have been done over a long period of time, uh, to highlight the importance of biodiversity and what’s happening with biodiversity. And so, I feel like in this space, there hasn’t traditionally been as much focus on biodiversity. It’s been more about climate. And so, for that, for me, it was it was an important moment to get that, that recognition for Mongabay’s work.

Mike: Yeah, one of the reasons why I believe Mongabay is as thriving as it is, is because.. is because of the heart of the employees here and the people that work here. What do you attribute this cohesion and this level of passion to? What makes this all come together, do you think?

Rhett: Well, I think people are really passionate about the kind of things that Mongabay covers, and there are not a lot of outlets that are really focused on these issues. So, let’s talk about the intersection of people and nature. So that, you know, encompasses wildlife, it encompasses ecosystems, it encompasses, frontline communities, and so, again, we have sort of like this this this niche, which has been a place where we’ve been able to build and grow and you know, people recognize Mongabay as being a respected source of information they can trust on these topics. I think one of the important reasons that Mongabay has been successful beyond the passion of, the people involved, is our willingness to iterate. The past 25 years, we’ve changed a lot. You know, we’ve grown as an organization, we’ve diversified, we’ve expanded internationally, we’ve had to sort of respond to these trends in the, the media business. And so, our willingness to try things out and learn and adapt has been absolutely critical for us to survive as an entity. I mean, beyond surviving, really thrive as an entity.

Mike: Yeah, like we transitioned to a non-profit model, sometime in the 2010s, correct?

Rhett: Yeah, so I started Mongabay in 1999, 25 years ago. There was no business model, it was just a passion project. But then there eventually was business models based on advertising. And so, advertising, you know, is monetizing your traffic. You know, at its heart. And so that was the model for Mongabay for a number of years. But I had all these ideas I wanted to pursue that there was no advertising-based business model for. So, for example, starting an Indonesian language news service. And I saw that as having an opportunity to drive impact in the world, so that’s why I wanted to do it. And so, I formed the non-profit, and once we formed a non-profit, we basically moved from monetizing traffic to maximizing impact. And so, it changes the kind of decisions you make. It’s, you know, a radical rethink of how you do everything through that model. And that also allowed us to expand. So, when I started the non-profit, Mongabay had two and a half employees, and now we have 110 staff and about a thousand contributing journalists. And we’re growing, modestly every year, but it’s compound growth. So, I actually just filled out some financial forms and I realized we hadn’t updated the numbers since 2021 and back then we had 60 staff. So, we’ve almost doubled since, since the beginning of 2021.

Mike: Yeah, that’s like, it’s crazy to think about how much we’ve grown just since I’ve been here. It’s, um, it’s a lot. You’ve achieved a ton in 25 years. I’m curious, what are some of the biggest lessons in leadership that you have gleaned, like keys to a successful operation that you would like to share?

Rhett: Well, I believe in giving people a lot of autonomy so they can make decisions that, uh, you know, feel are best and they don’t have to necessarily consult me. So, it’s been a very core part of Mongabay and the fact that we have like these bureaus, which are pretty autonomous. Uh, I think that’s been really important and the bureaus can learn from each other because they’re, you know, on these separate paths, we still talk to each other. I guess being respectful of your colleagues and being willing to listen, has been really important. I actually wrote something about this very topic a few months ago, which would be, you know, happy to share like in the notes. But, uh, there’s a, there’s a whole bunch of, of things, but I mean, those are two very important components. The other is, I’ve already said it, but the willingness to be open minded and experimental and try things and then, build off the successes, cause when I started, when I started the nonprofit, when I started Mongabay, I didn’t have any background in journalism or environment. And then when I started the nonprofit, I didn’t have any background in running a nonprofit, raising money, and I didn’t have connections to wealth. So, I sort of had to figure it out along the way. And so, it means that, again, being open minded is very important. But also, there’s a lot of serendipity in what you do. And when you see something working, then you sort of double down on what’s working. Make those decisions to not pursue certain paths because, they don’t seem viable or, they’re not gonna be as successful as other paths.

Mike: I mean, environmental journalism is hard. I mean, environmental journalism is really hard, as we all know. and there’s a lot we could feel gloomy about, but there’s also a lot that’s exciting and a lot of promise and a lot of potential. So, what right now is giving you optimism for environmental news? Are there some trends that are really exciting you, that are driving you forward?

Rhett: Yeah. So, I think there’s a big increase in awareness about the importance of a healthy planet, supporting healthy people. And so, we’re focusing on the intersection of people in nature, but this recognition of nature-based solutions and the whole idea that if, you know, do you degrade these ecosystems, you lose access to clean water and you have climate change and all these other things. And so, because the effects of environmental degradation are becoming more and more apparent to more people on a more regular basis, essentially the constituency around environmental issues, is growing. And so, the kind of topics we cover are more and more relevant to more people. So that’s a big opportunity. And so that is something that, I mean it’s, on one hand it’s depressing that we’re having these problems, but on the other it’s like, well, there’s an opportunity to engage way more people than you’d be able to engage like 15 years ago. And if we’re talking about more broadly with conservation, I think it’s been very…a lot of the development is around technology. And so, getting a better sense of getting a better understanding of what’s happening and being able to sort of quantify that and the knock-on effects that has for the sector. So, for example, you know, in the 2000’s there was the emergence of this, this car, you know, forest carbon. So eventually became known as REDD+. And so, when those conversations sort of started to take off it raised the question of. Well, who, you know, who gets the benefits and like who owns this land? And so, it created these questions around land tenure and understanding of the importance of securing land rights. So, for Indigenous and local communities, and then people started to look at, okay, well, what conservation interventions are working? And then there’s recognition that, oh, well, some of the largest areas of intact forests are actually in Indigenous territories. And so, in the 2010s, you started to see that really start to grow, and these big conservation groups that traditionally weren’t really known for working with Indigenous and local communities really start to embrace those communities. So, whether… you know, we’ll see where that ends up, but the conversations now are very different than they were 20 years ago in terms of recognizing the importance of Indigenous local communities having rights to the recognized rights to their land and how that drives conservation outcomes. So that’s another like positive development. But I think that, you know, the seeds for that were born out of understanding kind of what works and what doesn’t work in conservation and how that’s supported by better science and better data.

Mike: Something I just thought of is that, here at Mongabay, we are all about impact and keeping track of that impact. And given that it’s been 25 years, there’s a lot to look at. But are there any instances that really stand out to you that you want more people to know about that you’re really proud of?

Rhett: Yes, there’s some very high-level impacts that I think are important. So, one is Mongabay Indonesia. And so, before I started Mongabay Indonesia, there was environmental coverage in Indonesian, but it was kind of sporadic, it didn’t cover all of Indonesia. And so, I saw this as a gap, as something that, if there was environmental news coverage, it could actually lead to, meaningful outcomes in Indonesia because a lot of the issues were related to mismanagement and corruption in the natural resource sector. And so, journalism is an intervention that can increase accountability by increasing transparency. And so, when Mongabay Indonesia was born it just created this whole new lever for driving positive change in Indonesia. So, it’s a place where journalists across Indonesia could get paid for publishing environmental news. And so, I think like, that’s, I mean that’s kind of like a very broad one, but now you have this thriving news outlet that’s read by key decision makers in Indonesia, you know, in government and private sector in civil society, you know, getting this information that previously wasn’t there. So, if we’re talking about like more specific impacts, I mean, my favorite that I go to all the time is, this United Cacao story where basically there was this company that was clearing forest in the Amazon. And they were telling investors that they were regrowing, regrowing the rainforest and the Amazon and working with Indigenous people and all this other stuff. But we found out that that was not what was happening. And so, we did this big, this big investigation, got a lot of international coverage after we broke the story internationally. And then NGOs started to do campaigns on it. And then two years later, the company was delisted from the London Stock Exchange, which was important because it had been planning to raise money through a secondary offering to expand its operations to clear about 100, 000 hectares of forest. And so, because it was delisted that didn’t move forward. And so, it was it’s about 20 million or 30 million tons of CO2 emissions that didn’t go out into the world because that forest wasn’t cleared.

Mike: Ah, that’s a great story. You know despite the challenges of running a news operation, especially today, Mongabay is growing, and we’re doing a lot more now, even than we were just last year. So, what are some of the biggest ventures that you are looking forward to here at Mongabay in the years ahead or presently?

Rhett: So, one of our big expansions currently underway is growing our presence in Africa. So Mongabay has always done reporting in Africa, but relative to Southeast Asia, South Asia and the Amazon, it’s hasn’t been as strong for us. And so, we’ve been able to spin out our team into their own bureau, which essentially establishes the infrastructure for that team to scale up further. And so, I think our number of staff in Africa has doubled since last year. And what that’s enabling us to do is to also work with a lot more contributors in more countries across the region but also establish partnerships with local media outlets across the continent. So, it means that we’ll be able to reach a lot more people and produce a lot more stories and just have more impact. So that’s like one major area of expansion that I’m very excited about. Another is topic based. So, we’re scaling up our oceans coverage, but also our coverage of if you look at sort of the planetary boundaries framework, the novel entities. So, pollution which is not something that we traditionally done a lot, a lot with the Mongabay, but now we’re doing quite a bit more reporting. And then kind of a third major area would be, uh, doing more data journalism. So, we launched Mongabay Data Studio earlier this year, which is our data journalism initiative, which has three components. So, one component is getting, turning more data into actionable information through reporting. So that’s using primary data sources like satellite data and working with directly with data scientists to get information that then goes into stories. The second component of that is turning the data that we produce through our reporting into a public facing tools that could help with decision making. So, for example, this reforestation database that we created, or the conservation of effectiveness project, which looks at the effectiveness of different conservation interventions. And then a third component is really around capacity building. So, we’re upskilling, which is helping environmental journalists beyond Mongabay, be able to do more with environmental data for their reporting. And so that last, part also ties in with another initiative for us, which is growing our training programs. So, we have both webinars for helping journalists learn about certain topics or certain approaches to reporting. But then we also have these paid fellowships, which are primarily targeted in the global south, so biodiversity hotspots in the global south. But we’re really excited about this. And so, we have English, Spanish, French, currently. We’re hoping to do more. And then we just launched a pilot with Indigenous journalists in the Ecuadorian Amazon. So, the ambition there is to scale it up across much more of the Amazon. So, there’s a lot to be excited about.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, it’s a lot. I am really excited and looking forward to all of it. Any last reflections that you, that you want to share just in general about everything that Mongabay has accomplished in this quarter of a century?

Rhett: Yeah, I mean, it’s been, it’s surprising to see how much Mongabay has grown. I never expected it to, to go in this direction. And even when I started the nonprofit, I was thinking it’d probably be a fairly small nonprofit, but we’ve just continued to build off of success. And, uh, we have, you know, among our donors almost every donor renews every year among foundations. And so, it’s just a confirmation that people like what we’re doing. It is having its impact in the world. So, it’s been, it’s been an amazing journey. And it’s very exciting to see how many just incredible people are involved with Mongabay now and what they’re doing. So, I’m very excited about the future.

Mike: Well, Rhett, thank you for speaking with me. Happy 25 and congratulations.

Rhett: Thank you.