Mamphela Ramphele: We mustn’t have a one-track mind. We champion a legally binding agreement. We get the coalition of the willing to start implementing, and through both the positive stories that come out of that and moral suasion, we get people to buy into it. This is what happened with tobacco. It didn’t happen overnight. It takes time because of the vested interests that want to delay the agreements and delay the implementation. But the generation that I am appealing to are the young people. They are greater in number than the golden oldies like me, and they must be the active champions. They must ask their governments: Why are they not signing up? And having signed up, how are they implementing this? They must be part of the monitoring and keeping up the pressure.

Mike DiGirolamo: Welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. I’m your host, Mike DiGirolamo, bringing you weekly conversations with experts, authors, scientists, and activists working on the front lines of conservation, shining a light on some of the most pressing issues facing our planet, and holding people in power to account. This podcast is edited on Gadigal land. Today on the newscast, we speak with Mamphela Ramphele, a medical doctor and activist from South Africa and a member of the Planetary Guardians, which is described as an independent collective elevating the science to make planetary boundaries a measurement framework for the world. She joins me today to talk about the first international conference on transitioning away from fossil fuels, which was hosted this past April by Colombia and the Netherlands in Santa Marta, Colombia. The group of 57 nations that convened at this conference, dubbed the Santa Marta Coalition, met to discuss and agree upon roadmaps and strategies for phasing out fossil fuels globally. Ramphele discusses some highlights of this conference, including the introduction of a scientific panel that will provide guidance to nations across the globe on developing their own roadmaps to phase out fossil fuels. At least two nations, Colombia and France, have already announced their own roadmaps. Ramphele discusses some of the challenges to a global fossil fuel phaseout, such as the difficulty of achieving a legally binding agreement. She tells me that part of the coalition’s purpose is to build enough momentum, which will in turn pressure nations to join. Currently, 18 nation-states are involved in developing a Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty, and about 17 countries are already actively working to remove fossil fuel subsidies. These efforts, together with an ongoing presence at climate COP conferences, Ramphele says, are what the Planetary Guardians hope will bring other nations into the fold. She also discusses the need for each nation to have a chief climate scientist who would coordinate with the Planetary Guardians, and she emphasizes that she sees younger generations as being instrumental in making sure a fossil fuel phaseout happens and in holding their governments accountable. Mamphela Ramphele, welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. It’s great to have you with us.

Mamphela Ramphele: Thank you very much. I look forward to our conversation.

Mike DiGirolamo: So for the listeners who don’t know about the Planetary Guardians, can you explain what the Planetary Guardians are and what the mission is?

Mamphela: Planetary Guardians is a network of people across the globe. We are now close to 50, and an even bigger group is advising us. These are people who are concerned about what humanity has done to the planet. We have already breached seven of the nine planetary boundaries, which means that the planet is less sustainable for the generations living now and those yet to be born. Our mission is to be champions of stewardship of this planet, which is the only planet that can sustain life, and we believe that every human being has a responsibility to be part of the stewardship of our beautiful planet.

Mike: And so you attended the first conference on the transition away from fossil fuels, which has now completed, and a coalition of nations convened. I’m hearing this is being referred to as the Santa Marta Coalition, and it includes major economies in the G20 and even some fossil-fuel-producing nations. So can you describe for listeners what this conference was about, what it was for, and what sentiments were expressed there?

Mamphela: This conference was about getting humanity to recognize that continuing to burn fossil fuel is endangering the sustainability of the world. But it is also expensive. The IMF calculates that when you look at subsidies for fossil fuels, they add up to something like $7 trillion. Now think about it. Countries are spending more on fossil fuel subsidies than they do on education. But here is also the good news. Countries like Uruguay that used to import fossil fuel, that used to have blackouts, today, by making the transition to renewable energy, are now 98% dependent on renewable energy, and that process has generated 50,000 jobs. China is using clean energy contributions to drive its economic growth. They have, up to 2025, invested $2.1 trillion. That’s 11% of their GDP going into clean energy. And we also know that there are other countries that are moving in that direction. Even private companies like IKEA have moved to 24% of their energy use being renewable, and by investing between 2016 and 2024, they have managed to reduce their emissions by 30%, which means we can all do things differently. Spain, for example, is now 63% renewable energy, and they are aiming to go higher. The other thing we learned from the tobacco industry is that we have to ban the advertising of fossil fuel, and countries have already started doing that, the likes of the Netherlands and so on.

Mike: This year, Amsterdam became the first capital city in the world to ban public advertisements for both meat and fossil fuels. The ban isn’t nationwide, but rather municipal.

Mamphela: And so there are huge opportunities for investing in renewable energy, and those investments pay in more than dollars. They pay in better health, a more sustainable world, and our sense of responsibility for the future.

Mike: So what was the major agreement that was agreed upon at this conference? Because I do believe there was a lot that was discussed, but what was the plan that was pretty much agreed to by all the nations?

Mamphela: What was agreed is that the 17 nations, the high-ambition nations that are already in this, have to accelerate and help those that are the slower adopters, like Canada and New Zealand. They must do more.

Mike: This is not to be confused with the High Ambition Coalition of Nations that convenes during climate COP negotiations. That’s a much larger body that was originally established by the Marshall Islands. At Santa Marta, a coalition on phasing out fossil fuel incentives, including subsidies, was in attendance, and these are countries that are actively trying to remove fossil fuel subsidies. It’s chaired by the Marshall Islands and the Netherlands. This may not be exactly what Mamphela was referring to, but there are also the 18 nations that are currently developing the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Mamphela: And we also know that Australia is going to be the host of COP31. They need to be leading by example. And so too, COP32 host Ethiopia, they have to also up their game. So the agreement is that those who already have high ambition should, in a sense, model their behavior and encourage other countries to join. We also have this amazing development of a science panel specifically to encourage the global energy transition.

Mike: This is referred to as the Science Panel on the Global Energy Transition.

Mamphela: We have wonderful scientists like Johan Rockström and Carlos Nobre, who have set up what they call the Global Energy Transition Team that is providing the science to encourage people to know that actually doing this is not just the best thing economically, it’s the right thing because it is backed up by science, and you can actually track how far we could come back from the danger of crossing 1.5 degrees. Santa Marta provided an environment for people to encourage one another and to leave Santa Marta with the energy, the enthusiasm, the inspirational sharing of responsibility to go and be the lights that will enable and encourage the rest of the world to move in this direction.

Mike: Now, speaking in terms of the practicalities of that transition, it looks like two nations so far have drawn up a roadmap to transition away from fossil fuels, and I believe that’s Colombia and France. But do correct me if I’m wrong. Are there any other nations that look like they’re getting things together to develop their own roadmaps currently?

Mamphela: Yes. There seems to be an energy flowing now, not in terms of burning, in Latin America. Latin America is determined to take leadership of this. So of course Colombia is there, but then the Brazils of this day don’t want to be left behind. And so having a Latin American country like Colombia committing, and France also committing, encourages people to see that it isn’t just what happens in Europe. It can happen wherever. In fact, when you look at my own continent of Africa, we have the sun every day, 52 weeks of the year. It is free energy that we can harness immediately, and those who have made the transition or are making the transition are already reaping the benefits. But we also need to bear in mind that in making this transition to renewable energy, we mustn’t create new problems. For example, China, which is doing so well in terms of transitioning to renewable energy, is one of the offenders who are destroying the green lung, the most effective green lung, which is the Congo Basin, by mining rare earths that are used for these renewable energy products. You cannot solve one problem by creating another. And we are already seeing the impact of damaging the Congo forests or the Congo Basin with Ebola. The Ebola virus doesn’t normally cross the human-animal boundary. It is because this kind of rush, this new kind of colonial extractive rush into the Congo Basin, has disturbed or is disturbing the ecosystem where fruit bats live in caves deep in the forest. But the more you disturb that forest, you are disturbing their habitat, so they come out, and of course they carry these viruses, which do nothing to them. But those viruses are deadly for the human race.

Mike: According to the Centers for Disease Control, as Mamphela says here, it is believed that African fruit bats are the cause of spillover events, which are rare, into humans, causing Ebola. You can listen to more about disease spillover in my previous conversation with Neil Vora two episodes back, where he discusses the current outbreak of the Bundibugyo strain of Ebola that’s impacting the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Mamphela: So we’ve got to be extremely careful in whatever we do not to complicate an already difficult situation by being reckless, because it is recklessness. No one denies the fact that we need rare earths, but there are places where rare earths are that are not necessarily those precious green lung areas. Already, the Amazon has been so devastated by cutting down the forest and planting soybeans. And again, China is one of those countries that is involved in that.

Mike: China is the world’s largest importer of Brazilian soybeans, importing about 54 million tons from Brazil in 2022. Most of this consumption is reported to be for animal feed.

Mamphela: We cannot solve human problems by creating new ones in terms of disturbing essential ecosystems. That is fundamentally important.

Mike: And so I would like your opinion on how we can have a more just transition, particularly for the people who live in a nation like the DRC or other nations on the African continent, where there are these reserves of these minerals. How can we ensure that a more just transition is implemented in these countries?

Mamphela: First of all, we’ve got to accept that we have one planet, the Earth, and we are one human family. We’ve got to get rid of the myths of different races. We know the science says 99.99% of our genes are the same, so we cannot treat people as other because they don’t look like us. Second, we cannot assume, which is another myth, that we have been put in dominion over the universe or over the Earth. We are not. We are the last species that came into evolution here on Mother Earth. Third, we must stop this idea that we are born with a selfish gene. There is no such thing. Human beings are born to be interconnected, interdependent within the web of life. And finally, the idea that we are utility maximizers, which is what we teach young people in Economics 101, there is no such philosophy. When you think about how human beings evolve, look at all the Indigenous people who are still practicing those values that are aligned with how the living Earth system works. You cannot be a utility maximizer. Yes, we can use what is essential for life, but we cannot destroy in the name of progress. And so we can, in fact, if we apply our minds, and this is one of the roles of the Planetary Guardians, remind the world that we are one human race with one home, one planet that can sustain us, which is Mother Earth, and therefore we need to all be good stewards of the ecosystem we find ourselves in. And we’ve got to work together in a collaborative way across boundaries, across cultures, across continents, because we are one. We are one human race.

Mike: Hello, listeners, and thank you for tuning in. As I always like to mention, Mongabay is a nonprofit news organization. We rely on funding from listeners like you. So if you’d like to support the podcast, go to patreon.com/mongabay to become a monthly sponsor of the show. If you want more information about the Santa Marta Coalition, the Planetary Guardians, and the next conference on the phaseout of fossil fuels, please see the links in the show notes. Now, there was a point that was raised at the conference, and that’s that it’s quite difficult to achieve a fossil fuel phaseout in the absence of a binding international framework that governs that phaseout, like a legally binding framework. So this is always a question I have when it comes to fossil fuel phaseouts. How do we get something legally binding? What options are there on the table? What should the international community be considering?

Mamphela: We know that legally binding agreements are very difficult to reach, and so we have to find a way of going with the willing, the coalition of the willing, which is what we have now with the Santa Marta conference. And they then become the champions for a legally binding agreement. And this is how things work within the UN system. We have only now had a legally binding agreement at the UN about working together in terms of climate change, making sure that we do not worsen the damage we are doing to the planetary boundaries that I was talking about. And that has now been agreed, but then you have to go to the next level, which is to get people to ratify the agreement, which is a long process. That is why we mustn’t have a one-track mind. We champion a legally binding agreement. We get the coalition of the willing to start implementing, and through both positive stories that come out of it and moral suasion, we get people to buy into it. This is what happened with tobacco. It didn’t happen overnight. It takes time because of the vested interests that want to delay the agreements and delay the implementation. But the generation that I am appealing to are the young people. They are greater in number than the golden oldies like me, and they must be the active champions. They must ask their governments: Why are they not signing up? And having signed up, how are they implementing this? They must be part of the monitoring and keeping up the pressure. That’s what happens with change. You cannot get change unless you work for it, and it’s not a one-stop push. It’s a lifelong push.

Mike: So it looks like both Tuvalu and Ireland are going to host the next conference. Can you explain why these two nations were chosen, and is there a particular agenda or focus at the next conference?

Mamphela: I wasn’t privy to the actual reasons why, but I can see Ireland has been a progressive country in many ways, and of course, Mary Robinson, who is a former president of Ireland, is also a leader in the Planetary Guardians group. And I know Mary. Mary moves mountains. With Mary and her influence, supported by all of us, we’ll get something really fantastic coming out of that Irish conference. And I would imagine that a smaller country like Tuvalu will need support, and having seen the success of Ireland, it will be easier to encourage and support a smaller country to also be part of the examples of people who do the right thing for the right reasons.

Mike: So as you mentioned, we have the next COP that’s coming up, which will be hosted in Turkey, but also will be partially hosted by Australia and Fiji as well, I believe. Will the Santa Marta Coalition have a presence at COP? Will they be there?

Mamphela: Absolutely. You can be sure. And the Planetary Guardians will be there to make sure that those who are there do what they are there to do. This is a global campaign and a global push that we dare not take our eyes off, because this is not just for us. It is for generations yet to be born. We can leave a better Earth, a more sustainable Earth to those generations by just keeping on pushing. I have two grandchildren. I don’t want them to end up living on an Earth with the temperature averaging above 1.5 degrees, or let alone two, which would be unlivable.

Mike: And so what other things about this conference or the Planetary Guardians that we haven’t discussed do you want people to know?

Mamphela: We want people to know that one of the campaigns we believe will help to keep us on track is for every country to have a chief climate scientist. In the same way that you’ve got a chief economist and a chief health person, we believe that the health of the planet requires a chief official who will be an adviser to his or her government, but who will also hold their feet to the fire and help them harvest low-hanging fruit to move toward this renewable freedom, but also to move on other avenues of climate change so that we have a healthier planet.

Mike: And so if every nation were to have a chief climate scientist, would they perhaps coordinate with the Planetary Guardians or with the Santa Marta Coalition to update them and inform them on their nation’s progress on phasing out fossil fuels?

Mamphela: Absolutely. We have already offered ourselves. We have Johan Rockström, who is one of the best planetary scientists. So we are campaigning and nudging, as the Planetary Guardians, every country we visit to consider this. We are helping them to understand what it would entail, how they would be able to set up their job description, and we would like to have a network of chief climate scientists meeting regularly so that they can share ideas and shape their portfolios together, because nothing works like collaboration.

Mike: And this sounds really exciting, actually. So the Planetary Guardians, it almost sounds like it would be its own body, as it were, that would continue on in perpetuity, I take it, as the years pass to coordinate this effort. Is that something you envision?

Mamphela: Absolutely, but we also understand that some of us are on the sunset side of life, and we are mobilizing young people also. We have a network of young people who, like the Gretas of this day, have been championing transitions to protect the planet. So we are encouraging them. They are not necessarily part of us, but some of the young people are members of the Planetary Guardians. Our chair, for example, Hindou.

Mike: That’s Hindou Oumarou Ibrahim.

Mamphela: Hindou is an Indigenous leader from Northwest Africa. And so we are very aware that you can’t have golden oldies leading something that requires such a long timeframe to get right. And so we bring up the young people to be part of us, and in this case, she’s leading us. It is also important that it’s a she, because the world, when you think about the world, is dominated by men. And we know in life you need the feminine and the masculine energies to work together, but you can’t have one dominant one like the male dominance that we’ve got now, which is very extractive, and they tend to be very short-sighted, and it’s all about the ego. Whereas I’m not saying women don’t have egos, but on the whole, the feminine tends to have a longer-term view because that’s why we can be the bringers of new life. It requires patience, it requires love, and it requires a willingness to sacrifice yourself for the sake of the generation to come.

Mike: Mamphela, where would you like to direct people to learn more about the Santa Marta Coalition or the Planetary Guardians?

Mamphela: We have a website. You just need to Google Planetary Guardians. It will come up, and you’ll see all of our reports. You’ll see all of our networks. You’ll see all of the conferences we are a party to. And we tend to work by piggybacking on what’s already happening. For example, we’ll be in New York for the climate conference in September. So we work, and then we follow the COPs. Where there is a COP, we go, and we want to understand what the ambition is. We try and raise the level of ambition so that the world can know that we have the knowledge in terms of science. We have the energy. We have the technologies to really change the trajectory we are on, to move back to the wisdom of our ancestors and live in harmony with our environment.

Mike: Mamphela Ramphele, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you.

Mamphela: Thank you so much, and all the best for your generation, who are the leaders of today and tomorrow.

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